I see your points, all valid. Can’t say I disagree. Israel has been a punching bag in the Middle East. I guess their thought is enough is enough. Hard to see this not escalating further. But their enemies have kept their word of trying to destroy them. That’ll never stop.
To be honest I haven't formed an opinion on this event. So far in the last year ive been sympathetic to Israel's cause. War rarely solves problems. It just breaks things. I would have say this is one the absolutely wildest military op in the history of clandestine operations. Like the Ukraine conflict, it's hard to see a possible end of hostilities. Very sad.
I'm afraid I have to agree. Here we have a battle between religious fundamentalists. The idea that Netanyahu can actually eradicate Hamas is nonsense. These groups are eternal as long as Israel can be painted as the devil. This campaign in Gaza has done more damage to Israel's long-term goals that the Oct. 7 attack ever could have. IMHO
While I too am not a religious individual, Israel needs to do anything it can to remain solvent. Israel became lax when Hamas did nothing extraordinarily bad for a number of years. But now Israel must do everything possible to continue a democracy in one of the most undemocratic areas of the world. And anyone who believes injury reports issued by Hamas or Hezbollah needs to do additional research if you are to believe information from two of the most untrustworthy organizations in the world. I'd rather Israel distributes exploding pagers that will possibly hurt a couple hundred people than dropping bombs and rockets that could injure and kill thousands. We always Monday-morning- quarterback on the tragedies of the world caused by humankind. We dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan to end WWII. At that time, it was the best thing to do to save the lives of additional troops necessary for a land invasion of Japan. Today some people look at those bombs as horrific that the US could do such a thing. But in the end, it all has to be looked at as how times were at that particular moment in history.
All I know is that when someone starts something like Oct 7th, they called everything onto themselves. And then with Hezbollah joining in, they too called whatever onto themselves. Both religious sides call the area "theirs" and nuthins' gonna change their minds, so they either live together in the area, or kill each other off. Sadly, there seems no middle ground although my opinion is that Israel has indeed tried to live peacefully where our vaunted UN, which supposedly speaks for the entire world (yeah, right) granted them land after WWII. As for the pagers, I cannot blame Israel for doing it (if they actually did it) while under current and ongoing rocket and other attacks that just won't stop. There has never been a conflict to my knowledge where innocents were always safe. People wearing those pagers and using those radios were the enemy to Israel, the same Hezbollah organization that chose to enter into the conflict. Israel did nothing to provoke them to join Hamas in pummeling Israel. Nice, neat, cute little wars don't exist. And I'll end with this, I wish none of this had happened since Oct 7th, and let's not forget Iran's involvement to perhaps have even started it. Thanks Dave, nice vent for me.
“But the desire to defend modern values should never cause us to abandon those values. This attack feels to me like a war crime.”
Dave, I can see both sides. Israel is a construct as are all countries. Humanity should transcend these arbitrary boundaries.
What should bind us together would be our values. But our modern values are the very things that divide us. Do we even value life? How does a woman’s right to choose affect that value? If all of humanity valued life, there would be no war. How can one claim to value life and yet choose to kill another?
When I think of how our current country began, those that fought against the British (technically their countrymen), did not follow the rules of warfare. If they had, would there be a USA?
The anniversary of 9/11 was just over a week ago. Consider all that the USA has done in retaliation/prevention. Not just to others, but the sacrifices we all make in travel and privacy. Are we in any position to judge?
The question is not how much destruction is too much but rather what it will take for Israel to motivate a true partner interested in living together and forging a long term peace that benefits all parties. Sadly, the answer seems to continue to elude what are supposed to be sentient beings who have failed for generations and continue to do so. Arafat was so damn close at Camp David, missed opportunity I guess.
But don't conflate two "mandates." Jews might believe they have a divine mandate to live in "The Promised Land." But Muslims believe they have a divine mandate to actually kill Jews and Infidels. These two ideas are not the same. If Muslims laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel laid down its arms tomorrow, all the Jews would be dead.
I don't have much to say on this because I agree with all comments and Dave. I can't see a way out of this problem. That part of the world has been a focus of war, conflict and slaughter for thousands of years. That three major religions all started there and claim to be the true path to god makes it an unsolvable problem. I hear all the time about a two state solution but if you look into that in has little chance of working. Why would Israel allow that? That is like the family that has vowed to kill your family at any cost moves into the house next to you and the moving van is unloading an entire arsenal.
I love the comparison between tribalism and civilisation. They say civilisation is a thin veneer.
There are so many reasons mostly political why the Western powers support Israel. Obviously that one reliable ally in a very complex region seems to be the primary motivator for the continued support. It is however plain to me that Israel acts in a way no better than their enemies and they act in a way that we should find reprehensible.
It is such a mess that you can't turn a blind eye but you shouldn't get personally involved on the ground. There are no white hats and black hats in this conflict to me.
One thing I am sure of is that calling for the destruction of either side is wrong. Going out in the streets and spreading hate about either side is wrong. Like you pointed out there are families on both sides, families that are being torn apart.
Josh, respectfully, I ask you this: why don’t you ask Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists to surrender in order to spare their women, children, and elderly? They could have stopped Israeli wrath had they simply surrendered and given up the hostages. Why is no one asking that question? And why would anyone telling aggrieved Jews that it is they who need to stand down?
I think that Josh would say that goes without saying. Because everybody has said it. But these are millenia-old disputes and there is a consensus in the Arab world that Israel is the bully. I've supported them, as I say, because they represented Western values. I agree that this op was brilliant. But by that token, so was the Oct. 7 invasion. In terms of pulling off an audacious attack. There has never been peace in that region while I've been alive. Not really. I still don't quite understand why we back one 'people' in their claim to a 'holy land' while not the other. We should have brought the Jews to the US. Maybe given them a chunk of West Texas. They would then have been a resource, instead of a drain on us. Like the Jews who did come always have been.
Andrea I agree that Hamas wilfully use civilians as fodder to turn the rest of the world against Israel's military response. My grievance is that Israel doesn't seem to care how much collateral damage there is.
Hamas is a genuine terror organisation and has been a shameful actor in this region for decades. Clearly Iran and Hezbollah also have a lot to answer for too.
I believe that 99% of what 99% of people take as absolute right and wrong, has much more that is culturally contingent wrapped up in it than they would care to admit. However, I am truly forced to take the position that strategically planning to chop the heads off of as many babies as possible is absolutely wrong. Absolutely. No matter what the alleged reason. Following through on those plans is, in some sense, to leave the community of humanity.
Does this justify Israel's actions? That's the wrong question to ask.
Hamas carried out October 7 fully expecting Israel to react the way they did. In fact, THE POINT was to goad Israel into slaughtering the Palestinians - their own people - that Hamas claims to lead. I'm not exactly sure what the question is that I should be asking right now, but I know it's more about THAT than it is about Israel's response.
- I agree that all of the current leaders in this situation, including Netanyahu, are terrible people to bear responsibility for these decisions. I also believe political reality is vastly more complicated than the simple moral indignations of people like me, with no skin in the game.
- I think religious tribalism is a justification for this carnage, not the cause.
- I don’t think ANY border has ever existed that wasn’t formed by forcefully kicking out people who were already living there. I’m not excusing this, but I’m not going to ignore that it’s just the way humans are, and have always been. Civilised community depends on being able to eventually let go and move on.
- I am convinced that for Israel’s part (correctly or incorrectly), they sincerely believe their actions in Gaza represent the only hope of putting a permanent end to the demonstrably permanent determination of their enemies to destroy Israel's existence as a state.
- If someone was determined to kill me because he couldn’t bear my existence, there is no value system that would cause me to allow him to murder me. I would do whatever I had to to ensure he was unsuccessful in the attempt.
- If that person was actively trying to kill my daughter, I would be powerfully tempted to go significantly further than that. I think many, if not most, fathers would agree with me, and I think the Israelis are no different.
- It's undeniable that civilisation is the collective decision to rise above that visceral reactivity, but it's equally undeniable that there's a limit to this forbearance. You can only push even the most saintly man so far.
Years and years ago I set out to find out what the problem was between the Jews and Palestinians. The more I looked, the more it became evident to me that not even the Muslim nations want anything to do with Palestinians. And regarding who has rights to Israels borders, it isn’t only the Bible. The land was, once again, deemed Israel’s in 1948. So I read Israel’s claims to the land. Their reasoning was thought-out and meant to explain their position.
Then I turned to the argument of the Palestinians. I saw no thought-out reasoning that they held any claim to this land. All I saw was vitriol towards the Jews and that they have no right to life. This is so pervasive that I REALLY wanted to vomit when I saw Palestinian children acting in what looked like a school play … except that they were simulating a military invasion of Jews. Combat gear and all. Here’s s the point man sneaking up. There he is motioning for other attackers to advance. It looked to me like they might have been nine years old. This, I believe, is how they’re being indoctrinated on a daily basis.
And I can’t forget the recording of a man at the concert area in October talking to his parents and excitedly talking about how many Jew’s he killed and his parents were so proud!
This has been going on for so long; it’s time for it to end. How many compromises has Israel already tried? Land for peace? Ok, we’ll leave this area. Did it stop Palestinians from lobbing bombs over the border? No. The Palestinians, when the chant, “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free” they’re not talking about getting along. They’re talking about the annihilation of the Jewish state such that not one Jew is left to live.
How do you fight against that? For years, Israel has held back because radical Islamists use common people as human shields. Rather than talk about how inhumane it is to (maybe) accidentally harm someone nearby, why not discuss the fact that Hamas locates among the people, in schools, in densely populated areas and WANTS to see their own people blown to smithereens for the optics around the world. Islamists behead people … slowly. They put babies in ovens and turn the ovens on. They seem to work at being as gruesome as they can.
I do not see a parallel between tactically blowing up some cell phones and using people as human shields and committing what would equate to (because of Israel’s smaller population) a 9/11 where 44,000 people were killed.
Netanyahu has the appropriate response to this. “We did not start this war; we will finish it.” Winning a war means defeating the enemy. Apparently, Hamas has no idea they’re being beaten. It’s Hamas that’s refusing all attempts at a cease fire. If Hamas isn’t wiped out, the war will not be won. I abhor war like any reasonable human being, but the out-sized reaction to what Israel does vs what Hamas does is, in my opinion, a miss.
We’ve all seen this coming. The previous model was unsustainable and we all knew it. It was a pressure cooker and it finally blew. Both sides have legitimate grievances but their basic tenets are anathema to each other and as long as they view the other as the enemy cohabitation is impossible.
I’ve always felt this was the most difficult problem the world faced.
The sad fact is when one side declares war, both sides have to fight.
Phone/pager/radio seem a bit more targeted than the mass bombings where Hamas is using children as human shields. Isn’t that what politicians have been calling for, a targeted attack?
I see your points, all valid. Can’t say I disagree. Israel has been a punching bag in the Middle East. I guess their thought is enough is enough. Hard to see this not escalating further. But their enemies have kept their word of trying to destroy them. That’ll never stop.
Thanks John.
To be honest I haven't formed an opinion on this event. So far in the last year ive been sympathetic to Israel's cause. War rarely solves problems. It just breaks things. I would have say this is one the absolutely wildest military op in the history of clandestine operations. Like the Ukraine conflict, it's hard to see a possible end of hostilities. Very sad.
That was some Tom Clancy shit, eh?
There ain't no good guys in this fight. Israel had a chance for a measured response but Netanyahu is as bad as any of Hamas's leaders IMHO .
I'm afraid I have to agree. Here we have a battle between religious fundamentalists. The idea that Netanyahu can actually eradicate Hamas is nonsense. These groups are eternal as long as Israel can be painted as the devil. This campaign in Gaza has done more damage to Israel's long-term goals that the Oct. 7 attack ever could have. IMHO
While I too am not a religious individual, Israel needs to do anything it can to remain solvent. Israel became lax when Hamas did nothing extraordinarily bad for a number of years. But now Israel must do everything possible to continue a democracy in one of the most undemocratic areas of the world. And anyone who believes injury reports issued by Hamas or Hezbollah needs to do additional research if you are to believe information from two of the most untrustworthy organizations in the world. I'd rather Israel distributes exploding pagers that will possibly hurt a couple hundred people than dropping bombs and rockets that could injure and kill thousands. We always Monday-morning- quarterback on the tragedies of the world caused by humankind. We dropped two nuclear bombs on Japan to end WWII. At that time, it was the best thing to do to save the lives of additional troops necessary for a land invasion of Japan. Today some people look at those bombs as horrific that the US could do such a thing. But in the end, it all has to be looked at as how times were at that particular moment in history.
Thanks for your point of view, Brian.
All I know is that when someone starts something like Oct 7th, they called everything onto themselves. And then with Hezbollah joining in, they too called whatever onto themselves. Both religious sides call the area "theirs" and nuthins' gonna change their minds, so they either live together in the area, or kill each other off. Sadly, there seems no middle ground although my opinion is that Israel has indeed tried to live peacefully where our vaunted UN, which supposedly speaks for the entire world (yeah, right) granted them land after WWII. As for the pagers, I cannot blame Israel for doing it (if they actually did it) while under current and ongoing rocket and other attacks that just won't stop. There has never been a conflict to my knowledge where innocents were always safe. People wearing those pagers and using those radios were the enemy to Israel, the same Hezbollah organization that chose to enter into the conflict. Israel did nothing to provoke them to join Hamas in pummeling Israel. Nice, neat, cute little wars don't exist. And I'll end with this, I wish none of this had happened since Oct 7th, and let's not forget Iran's involvement to perhaps have even started it. Thanks Dave, nice vent for me.
Thanks for the comment, Greg.
“But the desire to defend modern values should never cause us to abandon those values. This attack feels to me like a war crime.”
Dave, I can see both sides. Israel is a construct as are all countries. Humanity should transcend these arbitrary boundaries.
What should bind us together would be our values. But our modern values are the very things that divide us. Do we even value life? How does a woman’s right to choose affect that value? If all of humanity valued life, there would be no war. How can one claim to value life and yet choose to kill another?
When I think of how our current country began, those that fought against the British (technically their countrymen), did not follow the rules of warfare. If they had, would there be a USA?
The anniversary of 9/11 was just over a week ago. Consider all that the USA has done in retaliation/prevention. Not just to others, but the sacrifices we all make in travel and privacy. Are we in any position to judge?
Well said. I can't help but think that the Military Industrial Complex is alive and well.
As predicted.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/eisenhower-warns-of-military-industrial-complex
The question is not how much destruction is too much but rather what it will take for Israel to motivate a true partner interested in living together and forging a long term peace that benefits all parties. Sadly, the answer seems to continue to elude what are supposed to be sentient beings who have failed for generations and continue to do so. Arafat was so damn close at Camp David, missed opportunity I guess.
As long as both The Jews and The Muslims believe that they have a divine mandate, killing each other is allowed. If not required.
But don't conflate two "mandates." Jews might believe they have a divine mandate to live in "The Promised Land." But Muslims believe they have a divine mandate to actually kill Jews and Infidels. These two ideas are not the same. If Muslims laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel laid down its arms tomorrow, all the Jews would be dead.
I don't have much to say on this because I agree with all comments and Dave. I can't see a way out of this problem. That part of the world has been a focus of war, conflict and slaughter for thousands of years. That three major religions all started there and claim to be the true path to god makes it an unsolvable problem. I hear all the time about a two state solution but if you look into that in has little chance of working. Why would Israel allow that? That is like the family that has vowed to kill your family at any cost moves into the house next to you and the moving van is unloading an entire arsenal.
Thanks Dave, I really liked this style of post to shake things up and complement the conventional style.
I know I wasn't there but perhaps this is getting closer to that Altadena Round Table that you miss.
I love the comparison between tribalism and civilisation. They say civilisation is a thin veneer.
There are so many reasons mostly political why the Western powers support Israel. Obviously that one reliable ally in a very complex region seems to be the primary motivator for the continued support. It is however plain to me that Israel acts in a way no better than their enemies and they act in a way that we should find reprehensible.
It is such a mess that you can't turn a blind eye but you shouldn't get personally involved on the ground. There are no white hats and black hats in this conflict to me.
One thing I am sure of is that calling for the destruction of either side is wrong. Going out in the streets and spreading hate about either side is wrong. Like you pointed out there are families on both sides, families that are being torn apart.
Josh, respectfully, I ask you this: why don’t you ask Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists to surrender in order to spare their women, children, and elderly? They could have stopped Israeli wrath had they simply surrendered and given up the hostages. Why is no one asking that question? And why would anyone telling aggrieved Jews that it is they who need to stand down?
I think that Josh would say that goes without saying. Because everybody has said it. But these are millenia-old disputes and there is a consensus in the Arab world that Israel is the bully. I've supported them, as I say, because they represented Western values. I agree that this op was brilliant. But by that token, so was the Oct. 7 invasion. In terms of pulling off an audacious attack. There has never been peace in that region while I've been alive. Not really. I still don't quite understand why we back one 'people' in their claim to a 'holy land' while not the other. We should have brought the Jews to the US. Maybe given them a chunk of West Texas. They would then have been a resource, instead of a drain on us. Like the Jews who did come always have been.
Andrea I agree that Hamas wilfully use civilians as fodder to turn the rest of the world against Israel's military response. My grievance is that Israel doesn't seem to care how much collateral damage there is.
Hamas is a genuine terror organisation and has been a shameful actor in this region for decades. Clearly Iran and Hezbollah also have a lot to answer for too.
Thanks for the reply, Josh. Much appreciated!
So, one more thing:
I believe that 99% of what 99% of people take as absolute right and wrong, has much more that is culturally contingent wrapped up in it than they would care to admit. However, I am truly forced to take the position that strategically planning to chop the heads off of as many babies as possible is absolutely wrong. Absolutely. No matter what the alleged reason. Following through on those plans is, in some sense, to leave the community of humanity.
Does this justify Israel's actions? That's the wrong question to ask.
Hamas carried out October 7 fully expecting Israel to react the way they did. In fact, THE POINT was to goad Israel into slaughtering the Palestinians - their own people - that Hamas claims to lead. I'm not exactly sure what the question is that I should be asking right now, but I know it's more about THAT than it is about Israel's response.
All I can do is share random thoughts:
- I agree that all of the current leaders in this situation, including Netanyahu, are terrible people to bear responsibility for these decisions. I also believe political reality is vastly more complicated than the simple moral indignations of people like me, with no skin in the game.
- I think religious tribalism is a justification for this carnage, not the cause.
- I don’t think ANY border has ever existed that wasn’t formed by forcefully kicking out people who were already living there. I’m not excusing this, but I’m not going to ignore that it’s just the way humans are, and have always been. Civilised community depends on being able to eventually let go and move on.
- I am convinced that for Israel’s part (correctly or incorrectly), they sincerely believe their actions in Gaza represent the only hope of putting a permanent end to the demonstrably permanent determination of their enemies to destroy Israel's existence as a state.
- If someone was determined to kill me because he couldn’t bear my existence, there is no value system that would cause me to allow him to murder me. I would do whatever I had to to ensure he was unsuccessful in the attempt.
- If that person was actively trying to kill my daughter, I would be powerfully tempted to go significantly further than that. I think many, if not most, fathers would agree with me, and I think the Israelis are no different.
- It's undeniable that civilisation is the collective decision to rise above that visceral reactivity, but it's equally undeniable that there's a limit to this forbearance. You can only push even the most saintly man so far.
Years and years ago I set out to find out what the problem was between the Jews and Palestinians. The more I looked, the more it became evident to me that not even the Muslim nations want anything to do with Palestinians. And regarding who has rights to Israels borders, it isn’t only the Bible. The land was, once again, deemed Israel’s in 1948. So I read Israel’s claims to the land. Their reasoning was thought-out and meant to explain their position.
Then I turned to the argument of the Palestinians. I saw no thought-out reasoning that they held any claim to this land. All I saw was vitriol towards the Jews and that they have no right to life. This is so pervasive that I REALLY wanted to vomit when I saw Palestinian children acting in what looked like a school play … except that they were simulating a military invasion of Jews. Combat gear and all. Here’s s the point man sneaking up. There he is motioning for other attackers to advance. It looked to me like they might have been nine years old. This, I believe, is how they’re being indoctrinated on a daily basis.
And I can’t forget the recording of a man at the concert area in October talking to his parents and excitedly talking about how many Jew’s he killed and his parents were so proud!
This has been going on for so long; it’s time for it to end. How many compromises has Israel already tried? Land for peace? Ok, we’ll leave this area. Did it stop Palestinians from lobbing bombs over the border? No. The Palestinians, when the chant, “From the River to the Sea, Palestine will be Free” they’re not talking about getting along. They’re talking about the annihilation of the Jewish state such that not one Jew is left to live.
How do you fight against that? For years, Israel has held back because radical Islamists use common people as human shields. Rather than talk about how inhumane it is to (maybe) accidentally harm someone nearby, why not discuss the fact that Hamas locates among the people, in schools, in densely populated areas and WANTS to see their own people blown to smithereens for the optics around the world. Islamists behead people … slowly. They put babies in ovens and turn the ovens on. They seem to work at being as gruesome as they can.
I do not see a parallel between tactically blowing up some cell phones and using people as human shields and committing what would equate to (because of Israel’s smaller population) a 9/11 where 44,000 people were killed.
Netanyahu has the appropriate response to this. “We did not start this war; we will finish it.” Winning a war means defeating the enemy. Apparently, Hamas has no idea they’re being beaten. It’s Hamas that’s refusing all attempts at a cease fire. If Hamas isn’t wiped out, the war will not be won. I abhor war like any reasonable human being, but the out-sized reaction to what Israel does vs what Hamas does is, in my opinion, a miss.
We’ve all seen this coming. The previous model was unsustainable and we all knew it. It was a pressure cooker and it finally blew. Both sides have legitimate grievances but their basic tenets are anathema to each other and as long as they view the other as the enemy cohabitation is impossible.
I’ve always felt this was the most difficult problem the world faced.
The sad fact is when one side declares war, both sides have to fight.
Phone/pager/radio seem a bit more targeted than the mass bombings where Hamas is using children as human shields. Isn’t that what politicians have been calling for, a targeted attack?
This is actually a very interesting take on the pager issue Peter.
I still share Dave's grievance of the risk of collateral damage but alas this is war and they could've avoided it.
“Arguably ….the most difficult problem we (earthlings) face